MAKINO Kiyoshi WSKO Official Instructor Nishijin Branch Master, Japan Vice Representative of Kongo Zen Sohonzan Shorinji

Interview with Makino Kiyoshi - August 24, 2002

--Makino Sensei, could you please tell us what got you started in Shorinji Kempo?
At first, I liked everything. When I was young I did lots of budo. It just so happened that when I was thinking that I would like to do something with my body, Shorinji Kempo was being unveiled in Kyoto for the first time, and that was what got me started.
Up till then, I had done Nihon Kempo, boxing, and Tankendo. In middle school I studied Nihon Kempo. It's one of those things where you're just supposed to win, the punches and kicks are like karate, and the throws are like judo. In high school, I boxed.

-- So you have always liked the fighting arts, right?
No, you see, when I was very young my body was very weak. At my reunions, even now everyone wonders at how I'm still alive. That's how bad it was then. Born prematurely, they said I probably wouldn't live till elementary school graduation. To give you an idea, the doctor wouldn't let me participate in Sports Day at school, and they didn't take me on field trips, saying that I would just be a bother because I couldn't walk. They gave me the nickname, Hanger, because at P.E. time, everyone would bring their clothes to me after changing. I had to take lots of drugs every day. In reaction, I'd secretly swim around the Hozu Bridge at Arashiyama.

-- Even so, you wanted to do martial arts?
It was because I was physically weak and was made fun of that, in reaction, I wanted to get strong. It happened that there was a Nihon Kempo club at my middle school, and I joined it. From that time, I read about Kaiso a lot in the paper. I used to cut out the articles and collect them. I thought, "This person's making really huge claims." This is when he had 3,000 students. After that, I also went to see aikido, but to me, who had been doing martial arts, it looked like dancing.
Then, on December 10, 1961, I heard there would be a public embu at Daruma Temple in Kyoto, so I went to see it. Kaiso and Ueda Sensei from Naoshima came. At that time, Ueda Sensei wasn't using the staff, but a wooden sword. That night, I joined.
At first, I wasn't picky, but in time I was drawn to Kaiso's charisma. He worked me hard, but�c At the time Kaiso spent half of each month teaching at Hombu, and half teaching in Kyoto. Since it was completely different from the martial arts I had learned, I was constantly being corrected. "You're doing it again," he'd say. He wouldn't tell me what to do differently, so I bought a mirror, set it up at home, and practiced facing it.

-- From that time to now you've kept at it for a long time, but what is it that keeps you going?
It's probably personal relations. And Kaiso's charisma. Even when I was getting sidetracked, he'd pull me back in. Before then, I had a really rotten period. At around 20, before I started Shorinji Kempo, there was a time when I had entered a bad group, and I would spend every day horsing around. Thinking that this was no good, I joined the Self Defense Forces. There were forty applicants for every spot to get in there, but when I would compare the amounts I had made on pachinko and gambling with my monthly salary, I would feel like such a fool.

-- It seems that you've changed quite a bit from the image of having been physically weak in youth, but you really have changed haven't you?
Since my body was weak and I thought I might die anytime, I figured I'd do what I liked. Still, I thought that to do what I want, I would need to be strong. I think everyone in our generation is the same. At that time I got into a lot of trouble, to the point where when they caught me, they'd say, "You again."

-- You went to Indonesia two years ago. What was your impression?
Indonesia's Indra Sensei is someone I know from practicing at Kyoto Betsuin while he was an international student at Doshisha University. In Indonesia, it was as if our old Dharma Temple had been left just like it used to be. The kenshi were eager too. Normally when you teach, if you do a technique and it hurts, there are a lot of kenshi who will object to the pain, but in Indonesia that never happened. The enthusiasm of the kenshi was like the Kyoto Betsuin of that time.
Europe is the same way, you know, it's as if they have the things Japan has lost. I think Japanese people are splendid people. In the old days, the overall level was high. But, now there are huge variations in the level of skills. People who can really can, but people who can't really cannot. This isn't just true in Shorinji Kempo; you can say the same about everything. A Japanese kenshi tries a technique on a European kenshi of the same rank and it doesn't work. The enthusiasm is different, you see. You take time for a single technique, you use your head to think about it. In the international taikai too, foreign kenshi have the same forward-looking attitude of early Japanese kenshi. And they also think clearly.

-- Did you have any problems instructing in such a place?
Shorinji Kempo is taught hands on, so I never had any problems teaching. But I'm saddened that since I don't speak the language, I can't communicate my feelings. In the era when I was raised, the attitude was, "Who needs to speak the enemy language?.

-- Are there any foreign kenshi in your Doin?
Yes there are, but there is a difference of attitudes between people who learn about Shorinji Kempo in Japan and people who transfer here with experience studying overseas. There are people in the first group whose attitudes are at the level of wanting me to be their visa guarantor. In contrast, people who come after studying in Europe are hard workers. There is one person from France, and he wrote his shodan written exam in Japanese, using Chinese characters. He's Aosaka Sensei's student.

-- Please tell us what led you to open Nishijin Doin?
I didn't actually want to make Nishijin Doin! Kaiso told me to do it. I established clubs in Kyoto's Self Defense Forces and in a high school, but Nishijin Doin was different. One day Tsutsumi Sensei and I were called out by Kaiso and Suzuki Yoshitaka Sensei. Actually, at the time, I was gathering people to practice at night on the grass at Kyoto Gosho (Imperial Palace) without actually opening a doin. You couldn't see us at night, but in the daylight you could see the grass all mussed and torn. And also, other doin masters said would say this was their place to practice, so go somewhere else. When the kenshi that I was practicing with appealed directly to Kaiso, saying shouldn't we be able to practice Shorinji Kempo wherever we like, Tsutsumi Sensei and I got called out. Kaiso said, "What have you been doing till now? Make a doin!" So I made one. So, you see, I'm doing it without really wanting to. (laughter) At that time I was nearly 40. There were lots of transfers from other doin, and it became a doin just of experienced people. We were using an elementary school, all of us adults with dan rankings, and the locals raised the claim that it was just outsiders, and so we started instructing the local children. That youth group became an independent branch three years ago. Because the local children grew up. We wanted to earn the understanding of local people, and this is normal, but we use the facility neatly. Even in the cold of winter, for example, we clean the toilets in our bare feet. Also, we called the local women's association, and we opened up seiho study sessions to teach them. We thought they could learn it, take it home, and couples could give each other massages. After a while, the women's association started calling us up, asking us to come to them. We instructed them many times. They were happy and would praise us for how good it felt, but they never learned any of it. (laughter) However, as a result of that, the local women ended up with a different impression of us. Also, the local kids join soccer clubs when they start fifth grade, but before they let the kids learn soccer, their parents have come to tell them to practice Shorinji Kempo first to learn some manners. There is a women's volleyball club in the same space, and even though they don't manage to put their shoes in order, Shorinji Kempo kenshi, even the kids, can all keep their shoes tidy, and after we use the place, we always clean it before going home. The elementary school was closed down three years ago, but we're allowed to keep on using the building just as it is, probably because we clean up. We are blessed. As a result, however, I bring the cleaning equipment myself, and after practice I always bring the garbage home with me. My neighbors understand this. That's because I've been doing this for 30 years.

-- Could you tell us about your memories of Kaiso?
Whenever people ask me about my memories of Kaiso, I tell them a story the furo (bath) story. Maybe it's because I've led a sort of twisted life, and it has to come out somewhere. The old teachers tell about how they were thrown amazingly softly by Kaiso, but I always got thrown hard. I always wondered, "Why am I always the one being thrown? I think that probably showed on my face. After practice, two or three of us would be called on by Kaiso. At that time, many parts of Kyoto had no furo, and I would go together with Kaiso. There, Kaiso would wash my back. That's what really won me. The top man washing a new entrant's back - I'd never encountered a martial art like that before. Usually you couldn't even talk to the top guy directly. I also was allowed to wash Kaiso's back sometimes. Afterwards, we would go to a cafe, stay there till the store closed, and then he'd teach seiho. Every time Kaiso came to Kyoto it was like that.

-- At that time, what sort of people were practicing with you?
Morikawa Zeo Sensei joined together with me, in the 153rd class. Tsutsumi Kiyoaki Sensei joined the next month. I was 28, but because I was slower than most I practiced twice as much. Kaiso would get mad at me for my bad stance. Come to think of it, until Kaiso passed away I was always getting yelled at. Yamamori Sensei, who is now the Los Angeles Branch Master, was also a comrade at Kyoto Betsuin, and he said that Kaiso was always getting angry at me so he mistook that to mean that I was a troublemaker. Now, Yamamori Sensei and I are so close that we promised each other that if we're reincarnated, we'll try to be reborn as brothers.

-- Could you give us a message for overseas kenshi?
I hope you will try your best without forgetting the feeling you have now. Because you value and are preserving what Japanese people have begun to lose. There is a common saying in Japanese: "Once it's past the throat, you forget the heat." I think that from now on Shorinji will develop more overseas than domestically. If I could speak foreign languages, I would teach more than the techniques; I'd like to talk more about the teachings of Kongo Zen. I always request the translators repeatedly to be absolutely sure to translate without mistakes. I think the accomplishments of people who have sewn seeds overseas are tremendous. I deeply respect Mizuno Sensei and Aosaka Sensei. If I could speak English myself, I'd want to communicate my feelings, but more than that, if I were 20 years younger I would go overseas myself, and I'd teach Shorinji Kempo. That's what I'd like to do. At 20 years younger, I'd still be 50, of course.

-- You continue to teach actively, and everyone says you don't look that old. What's the secret of your youthfulness?
That's because I'm doing Shorinji Kempo! (laughs)

(Updated on January 15, 2003)

 

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